The Let's Play Archive

Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines

by gatz, TheMcD

Part 5: V - Thinned Blood

What Went Wrong?







Can't you figure it out? He's the president of the United States.

We won't have to live like this any more! I'm going to kill the head vampire!




"Life is essentially overcoming what is weaker, injury, at its very mildest, exploitation", blah blah blah. Don't start with that shit, you angsty teenagers.

Sorry Copper, but treating you nicely doesn't make for an interesting LP. Some were asking if he'll appear on the news if we send him after the president. I'm not sure, but I'll let you know if it happens.

We've got the astrolite, so we best be heading back to Mercurio.





Unfortunately, we didn't find anything to help with Mercurio's wounds at the drug dealer's house. Who would have thought that novice chemists making shitty drugs wouldn't be stocked with morphine or something else.

We again enter Mercurio's apartment, but find him face down on the sofa.



Aw, damn. Did you die on me?



Good, he's up.

I got the Astrolite back.

Yeah? Didja waste those sons of bitches?

No. That's not my style.

Didja get my money back?


We could lie and keep the money, but I have a hunch that Mercurio is the one Rosa was talking about when she said that we could trust "the man on the couch". We should get on his good side - we could really use allies we can trust in a time like this.

I did. Here it is.

Oh, you're a lifesaver. I might have to buy some new kidneys with this.


Not to mention that it could be the only thing that could keep him alive.

What's the story with this Astrolite?



LaCroix's plan was to send a fresh out of the box fledgling to blow up a Sabbat warehouse? We could use more details.

What do you know about this warehouse?

I heard a lot about that operation. I'd love to get in there, get my hands on the equipment they've been unloading. But it'd be suicide to walk in there... got a small army of trigger-happy types and they're all packin'. I don't know... maybe... uh...


A small army guarding the warehouse? LaCroix must be trying to send us to our death. He couldn't execute us without inciting a riot, so this was plan B. If we die, then it's like we never existed. He'll send someone(s) else to take care of the warehouse, no skin off his bones, and he won't have to worry about a bastard fledgling who hates his guts for good reason. If we succeed in blowing up the warehouse, he'll just send us on another suicide mission. It's a win/win situation for him.

Fuck that guy. But Mercurio trailed off, sounding like he had something else on his mind. Could he be wanting to warn us about something?

Maybe what?

Well, there's a guy, I never met him, but I heard a lot about him. His name is Tung, Bertram Tung. He's one o' you types. If there's anyone who knows more than me about this city, it's him. Unfortunately, Tung's hiding out at the moment.

What? Why?



If you wanna put that warehouse into orbit any time soon, you're gonna have to get Therese to call off the feud.


Well, I suppose it's too much to hope for Mercurio to cross the prince to help us. We may be able to trust Mercurio, but he won't make himself vulnerable for us. Remember, he's got his supply of blood to worry about.

Where can I find her?

She and her sister, Jeanette, they run The Asylum. Some freaky customers frequent that place. I try not to do business there.

What can you tell me about her?

She's THE woman around here. Power player. Nice looking broad for a dead chick, but, uh, personality like stone.

What can you tell me about Jeanette?

Therese... Therese I don't like, but I can respect her. Jeanette's different. I don't know what to make of her. She's a little, you know, in the head. I don't know. Therese is, well, like you, and I would think so's Jeanette, but I hear rumors about her.

Rumors?



Call me old-fashioned but I believe a knee to the balls always makes a guy talk.

Alright... Jeanette. Got a body built for bedrooms. And I got close acquaintances says they conquered that territory. But I asked the main man and he says you types, you know, can't or don't, err, do that kind of thing. Anyway, whatever she is, I hear Jeanette's a wild girl.

What can you tell me about Bertram Tung?

I don't know 'im, myself. I'd like to meet the guy - kind of a local legend. He and Therese seem to be contenders for this city. He's crafty, smart guy. I haven't heard anything bad about him.


So that's next in the main plot: find a way to call off the feud between Tung and Therese. Jeanette just may be the wild card, here - well, aside from us. If the Asylum is where she is, that's where we should go. Eventually, anyway. First, let's ask Mercurio some more questions.

What can you tell me about yourself?

What's to tell? I can get anything anyone wants at any time. Could say it's my calling. Till the Astrolite, wasn't anything I couldn't handle - well, back east, some shit went down, Big Apple, can't go back. I hate LA, but whaddaya gonna do?

Know where I can score some guns?




Keep Mercurio's secret safe, get a supplier of guns, and keep a friend. Betray him, and get...? Get send on another suicide mission, probably.

Enough from Mercurio. We could head to the Asylum, but I'm more interested in this whole 'Thin-Blood' situation.





The diner is our only lead. According to E, it's where it all began - where he and Lily met.



Some place. The old woman behind the cash register is probably the one to talk to.



But this guy intrigues me. Who stands in the corner of a diner, alone? It doesn't look like he's waiting for an order. He's just standing there.

citybeatnik posted:

Semi-funny/interesting aside - the tattoos on this guy? Entirely possible that they were done with a Sharpie.

Wait, wait, hear me out!

White Wolf, especially in its early days, was elbows deep in the club kid subculture which is why it had the balls to describe its setting as "gothic punk". While some of that dealt with the aesthetics of the game, the setting and all that rot, a great deal of it was spent on minor, useless crap like how people looked. You'll find sections in the various splat books that talk about how members of such and such clan dresses, which i imagine comes from the developer hoping to cash in on the Mind's Eye rules (LARPing).

But how on earth does your character rock the ink to show that they're not down with The Man if they were Embraced without it? You can't get a tattoo when you're dead (barring the use of Vissitude and other magical stuff) since your body actually rejects the ink during the day - you can get a fresh tattoo every evening but really who on earth has the time?

The solution, as mentioned in the Guide to the Camarilla, is simple - use a permanent marker. Vampires don't sweat and they don't have oily skin, which means that what would rub off relatively quickly on a mortal sticks around longer on the typical vampire. Sure you might have to fill it in occasionally but that's just a few minutes work, right?




Uh... chilly out there tonight.

I guess.

You seem preoccupied... is everything okay?



Sorry, didn't mean to intrude.


He's a vampire. Just look at his teeth. Something's got to be up, but we can't get anything out of him.

We'll see if he's up to anything, later, but for now we should talk to that old woman at the counter.



The cream's curdled. I can smell it. And I think those are rat droppings there.

You the health inspector?

[Persuade] Let me just get my badge and I'll show you.




Anyway, let's get down to business. She seems to have a problem with short term memory, which works well for us.



You ever see any pale, kind of strange types in here, late at night?



If we were an idiot we'd go with option 1. Option 2 is just a rephrasing of what we just asked. Since she seems to have a problem with short term memory, maybe it could work.

You see any girls hanging out here... pale girls?

Pale girls? Oh, like the Fitzsimmons albino? Yeah, she hasn't been in here in ages.


Nope.

You see a couple in here a few months ago, surfer guy, pretty girl?

Hmm... let me think. Oh, yeah, about four dozen a week.


Fuck it, being subtle isn't working.

Have you ever heard the term "thin-blood"?

Thin blood? Sounds familiar... is that one of those tropical diseases?

Try to remember, where did you hear it?

Hmm... I know I've heard that before.

Maybe a kind of strange, pretty girl said something about it, recently.


She was probably pale, too.

Oh, that girl. Nice girl. First decent human being I've seen here for years - not like all the junkies and crazies I normally see. Yeah, I remember her. Yeah... weird. She left a tip but didn't order a thing.



Thanks a lot. I'll be sure to do that.


That was easy enough. We get a purse (useless)



A photo of Lily at the thin-blood hangout spot



And a bail bond. Hmm... a bail bond. Rolf Toten? Toten is the german word for dead, more or less. Could that mean anything? Also, we received an email from Kilpatrick. We should be able to find out something on this Rolf Toten at his place. That's our next stop.





On our way there, we run across this doomsday preacher. This is a kind of a personal anecdote, not related to the game at all, but a month or so ago I was walking home from a few friend's apartment around midnight, and I ran across one of these types. Not someone preaching about the coming apocalypse, but just a road-side preacher. He was standing on a stool outside of a bar, and he was in some sort of religious argument with a drunk student that didn't go anywhere. They both called each other faggots. Anyway, I thought it was hilarious that, when the light turned green and I was crossing the street, he shouted "Sinners! Give up your jello shots!" We live in strange times.



Kilpatrick's is just on the end of the street. Santa Monica is a surprisingly small place.



The radio in the back plays a radio show called "In the Deb of Night". It's one of five different instances that I'll be showing it off. The first recording is about 7 minutes long. It can be funny, so it's worth a listen:




That's probably Arthur, standing up. Who's "B" Kilpatrick, then, as the sign said?



You run this place, I assume.

Yup. Sure do. I'm a third-generation bondsman. Got a few employees, but I handle most every aspect of the business.

I don't see any employees, Arthur.

I gotta have a few other bondsmen to keep the place open 24 hours. Plus a bounty hunter. I pull the graveyard shift cuz that's when all the crazy shit happens in Santa Monica.

Santa Monica doesn't sound like a good place to be living.

Well, my business ain't bad, I can tell you that much. Santa Monica's gone downhill. Used to be pretty nice, I guess. We do a higher volume now than we did a few years ago, but we gotta deal with a lot more bail jumpers and crap like that.

It sounds like Santa Monica has seen better days.

Hell yeah. I ain't complainin'. I'm in a good position to watch it all just slide right down the tubes, you know what I mean?

It sounds like there's a lot of work here for a bounty hunter.

You betcha. I used to do some bounty huntin' back in the day. Takes a good solid set o' brass balls - uh, pardon the expression missy - but it takes balls to be a good bounty hunter.

Is the bounty hunter you have now any good?

Yep. Damn good. His name's Carson and he's great at what he does when he wants to do it. I can't seem to find him now, though. He's pissin' me off to be honest. I need him to go find someone.


In Arthur's dialogue file, there is what looks to be a previous version of this line, where the bounty hunter's name was 'Knox', not 'Carson'. Knox is now a giddy ghoul, instead.

Can't you find another bounty hunter?

Well, I don't feel right cuttin' Carson loose just yet - we go way back. I knew his father too. Tell ya what, since I'm stuck here, why don't you go look for him? Just real quick. I'll pay ya for your time.

Yeah, I guess I could.



I'll find him. Goodbye.


The Santa Monica Suites is Mercurio's apartment complex. We;ll head back there eventually, but right now we should get some info on Rolf. Arthur was a dead end, but there's also this:



This should get us what we need. Rolf Toten is the only thing we have to go on right now. Hopefully the information leads us somewhere.



>s-z



>toten, r



Red Lightningbird for a car? It's a long-shot, but it's the only piece of information from this that we can use. Let's check the parking garage.





Good thing this is the only parking garage in all of Santa Monica.



What do you know!



Rolf left the trunk unlocked, and there's a diary inside of it:

Diary posted:

This seems to be a woman's diary:

4/30/03 - I met a guy today at The Asylum. He's SO beautiful, oh my god. His name is Rolf and he is from Germany. European men are just so classy compared to boring California boys. He asked to see me tomorrow night. I wonder if he's rich. He looks rich. I'm going to go shopping tomorrow and pick up something that won't make me look like a big, fat pig. Can't wait to see him.

5/21/03 - I think it's getting serious with Rolf. He told me he wanted to give me something very special next week and if it's what I think it is, it's about damn time. I thought Europeans were supposed to be less uptight about this sort of thing.

6/06/03 - I woke up at 9 PM today. That would be strange in itself, except I don't remember going to sleep last night. In fact, I don't remember anything since last Saturday night when Rolf was over....

6/10/03 - I woke up late again. I haven't eaten anything in four days. I don't know what's wrong with me....

6/11/03 - Rolf came over last night. He said the reason I hadn't eaten anything was because I needed blood. He said it was all I could eat now, that I wouldn't feel hungry any more if I drank some. He had a bag of it from the local blood bank. I tried to refuse but I couldn't. What's happening to me?

7/26/03 - Rolf said he's going to have to leave soon. He said people are trying to force him out of the country. He didn't say anything about taking me with him.

8/22/03 - I had to bail Rolf out of jail today. He was arrested because his visa expired. He looked frightened. I'm afraid he's going to leave.

12/07/03 - I haven't seen or heard from Rolf since the night I bailed him out. I don't know what to do. I thought he cared about me. Why did he do this to me...?

4/15/04 - I talked with this guy I met in the Surfside until five this morning. When I told him I had to go, I felt like Cinderella. He seemed like a prince.

4/16/04 - I met that guy from the Surfside again. He has no idea what I am....

4/24/04 - I brought E, the guy from the Surfside, back to my apartment last night. He said he's going back to Australia in a few days, now that the tournament's coming to an end. I don't want him to leave. I've never felt this way about someone before, not even Rolf.

4/25/04 - E kissed me last night and I couldn't stop myself from biting into his neck. But I drank too much and... I gave him my blood to save him. When I explained it all to him, he said he never wanted to see me again. What have I done?

5/08/04 - I haven't been able to feed since that night with E. I'm afraid of what will happen. I remember Rolf brought blood from the blood bank. Maybe if I can sneak in, I can grab a few bags and get out before anyone catches me.

I have been made aware that we received the key to Rolf's car along with Lily's possessions. The implication is that she has been using the car since Rolf skipped town or was deported.

But, indeed, Rolf ist tote. He embraced Lily, who embraced E. Rolf must have been a pretty weak generation, since Lily's childe is a thin-blood. Is Lily a thin blood? We don't know, but what we do know is that Lily tried to sneak into the blood bank. That's inside of the medical clinic, so obviously that's our next stop.



The blood bank is in the basement, but who knows, there might be something important on the main level. We enter the clinic and talk to the receptionist.



[Persuade] I'm here to work on the network upstairs.

Nobody told me to expect any technicians.

Well, your driver conflex has a security nagle in the IP routing matrix.

Fine, whatever. Here's the key for the second floor. Stairs are down the hall. Tell the guard upstairs you're here to work on the network.

I just hope I'm in time to salvage the UniVBE server. Bye.




With that, we're allowed access into the back rooms of the hospital. We'll start with room one.





Oh shit, she doesn't look good. We better do what she says.



He's standing over some guy who looks like he's in a coma or something.



But there's this girl over there, and I think she's going to die.

See here now, I'm the only physician here at the moment. We got twice as many people as usual waiting for treatment. I'll look at her soon as possible. Try to talk to her, keep her awake.

But...

I got a man in there with a bullet in his head. My nurse paged Doctor Roberts a half hour ago; he'll be here any time. Till then, stay with your friend and make sure she doesn't go into shock. I must go.


That didn't work. I doubt that she's going to stay alive without help.



We're going to have to do something drastic.

Stay with me, I can save you!

Ahh... heh... ahhhh! Ngh...

Here, drink this and live!






You alright?

You... Wa- Who... wh who are you? Ohh. What did you do? What did you do to me? Ah.


We've ghouled this girl in order to save her life.

I simply wanted to help.



Revealing that we're a vampire is about the stupidest thing we could do, not to mention it's a masquerade violation. How do you think she'd take it, in her state of mind?

Look, forget about this... and don't say anything. You'll be fine.

You - I feel like I know you... like you've always been here.

I really must be going now.


I'm not sure what else we can do in this situation. The vitae will probably keep her alive long enough to get patched up proper, but she's our ghoul, now. She's addicted and has a bond with us. She might go to great lengths to find us. We'll just have to wait and see.

Now to explore more of the hospital.



The last thing of note, for now, on the first floor is this report. I don't know what it means.



The blood bank is in the basement. Could Lily still be there? Maybe not, but there's a chance that she got caught, and someone might know something about her whereabouts.



This is the guy to talk to, since he's the only one down here.



I don't know what you're talking about.

They all come in here with that same, nonchalant look. With that "Who, me?" stare, as if they were so clever. Do you think you're the first vampire to try and come in here to buy blood? Honestly.


He knows about vampires? You can see his teeth - he's not embraced. But, there's a good chance that he's someone's ghoul. How else would he know?

I need to get into the back room.



[Intimidate] I don't think you heard me... I said I need to get into the back, ghoul.

This mortality is such a handicap. If we were on a level playing field, you wouldn't be so bold - if one slash to the throat could mean the difference between existence or not.

I doesn't, though, to me.

Mmm... Opened.

Now get back to work.




Back here, the only thing that might be of interest are these freezers. One of them has a keypad inside of it, but we don't know the passcode.



Then there's this guy. He might know the code.



[Persuade] If you don't know, you shouldn't be asking.

Oh... you here for the special sauce?

The password is "grimace".

I think you want the clinic upstairs. Are you sure you're supposed to be here?


That persuasion option didn't lead us anywhere.

I want the passcode to the freezer.

Oh boy, uh... I can't give that out. You're gonna have to leave.


Touchy subject... meaning there's probably something good locked in there.

[Dominate] You're getting sleepy....



He drops a notepad on the ground after being dominated...



There we go, 1969.



>1969




Blood? What could be in here?





It's Lily! She's strapped to that chair.. they've been extracting blood from her. She's their source!



What happened to you?

Let me go... it's painful, like I'm going to die. It's calling. Never felt like this before. LET ME GO! I CAN SMELL IT! I HAVE TO HAVE IT!


It's the beast. Who knows how long she's gone without feeding.

Hold still. I'll let you go.











The Beast took over. It happens.

Beast? What is that? Why couldn't I stop myself? Why did it... feel so right?

Because it's our nature.


You might be surprised that I chose that dialogue option. I will explain later.

No... no - I'm not a monster. It was instinct... I couldn't control it. I'm not responsible for my actions.

Sorry. Who are you?


We know who she is! Who did we come here to find?! Who was in the picture?!

My name is Lily.

Lily? You're the one E told me about.

E? You know E? I... how do you know E?

I said I'd help him. What do you know about thin-bloods?



Go on.

Rolf, my sire, told me some vampires consider thin-bloods a bad omen and want them destroyed. Rolf wasn't a thin-blood... and apparently I am. I don't know why. Rolf abandoned me. His group wouldn't take me in. They said I was a... liability.

He left me with so many questions. And I did the same thing to E. But I didn't want to leave E - he forced me out of his life. I - I should go. I have to get out of here. Maybe out of this city... soon.

You should go see E. He said he forgives you. He wants to see you.

E... doesn't hate me anymore?

No. Quite the opposite. You should talk to him.



You're welcome Goodbye.

Oh... about tonight... what I did... please, don't tell E. It's not my fault... I couldn't control it. I've never done anything like this before... I'm no killer.


We've had plenty of options to be an asshole in this conversation, telling Lily to leave the city without seeing E, extorting her for money, etc., but I'm not doing that.

I promise, Lily. It's not your fault. You couldn't help it. Goodbye.

Lily runs out of the clinic, but a familiar face calls us over.



[Intimidate] I need to get blood from somewhere. Haven't had ghoul blood in a while.



Then Vandal disappears back to his spot behind the counter. He's probably going to have to find another victim to get his blood, but that doesn't mean we have to buy it from him. Interestingly, this reveals the fact that Thin-Blood cannot ghoul mortals. If that was the case, since Lily was the source of the blood at the blood bank (who cares about blood types, right?), Lily would have who knows how many ghouls.



Back on the first floor, there's one more thing to take care of. I found the key to the doctor's office somewhere else in the building.



Morphine bottles on the counter! We can use that to help Mercurio. We'll take them. I get the feeling that there's something interesting on the computer.



We hack into his email...



1 posted:

<Subject> Tonight?
<From> PBEnice@SMMCmail.vtm

Malcom, are you free tonight? I thought you could swing by my apartment after your shift. You do still make house calls, don't you, doctor? I have something that needs to be checked out. - Paige

A little odd that Paige had something that needed medical attention, but could wait until Malcom gets off his shift to get treatment.

2 posted:

<Subject> Re: Think she's suspicious
<From> PBenice@SMMCmail.vtm

Do I really have to ask twice? We don't have to do anything if you don't want. But I really do need some help studying for my anatomy test. Please? - Paige

Ah, that's why.

3 posted:

<Subject> Re: Think she's suspicious
<From> PBenice@SMMCmail.vtm

Guess I'll see you around give. I'm really glad you finally decided to come over. And if you should want me to show my appreciation... you just have to ask. - Paige

4 posted:

<Subject> On your way home
<From> Trina@SOL.vtm

Malcom, do you think you'll be able to get a day off next week? My mother's coming into town on Thursday. I bought a new mattress and some new curtains for the guest room. And do you think you can pick up some doughnuts and orange juice on the way home for breakfast?

Malcom's shitouttaluck.vtm. We've got dirt against him, and why not use it, if not just to make the LP more interesting.



But before we confront him, I want to check out the patients section.

h. poe posted:

Diagnosis: Ruptured organs. Lacerations. Internal bleeding.
Condition: Critical

That must have been the girl we ghouled. For her sake, it's good that we we're there, since she probably wouldn't have made it, but it's both a blessing and a curse.

a. kilpatrick posted:

Diagnosis: Severe tinea infection compounded by untreated herpes simplex 2.

d. marsh posted:

Diagnosis: Frequent bouts of sexlexia.

m. barber posted:

Diagnosis: Chronic marbopperitis. Uncurable.

No comment on the others. Now to talk to Malcom...



You Malcom? Your wife know about your affair?

Get out of here! Can't you see I'm with a patient?

I guess you don't care if your wife finds out then.

Are you trying to blackmail me? You don't know who my wife is - she wouldn't believe you. Now get out!

Then I'll go forward that email from "Paige" to Trina@SOL.vtm.



[Intimidate] $150

Deal. But I'm in the middle of something, I'll have to drop it off later. Now never speak to me about that again.

Put it in the mailbox for 508 in the apartments over the pawnshop, doctor.


Wonderful. To end the update, let's check back up on E at the beach.





Oh, Lily's there. I'm sure she'll be glad to see us.



She's talking about the fact that we said the beast is part of being a vampire. Simply pointing out that fact is equivalent to being "compassionless" and "heartless" to Lily. Keep in mind that we didn't try to extort her or anything else that would actually warrent the accusation. I simply pointed out that the beast can take over if you don't feed. I didn't say that it was a good thing.

When I chose the dialogue option, "it's our nature" I meant that it was only a part of the nature of being a vampire. I didn't say that it was the only aspect of the nature of a vampire. I don't even believe that. I'm essentially projecting my thoughts on what's called "human nature" to the world of Vampire: The Masquerade, but I think it's suitable enough. To quote Erich Fromm,

Erich Fromm posted:

“What has often been called 'human nature' is but one of its many manifestations—and often a pathological one—and the function of such mistaken definition usually has been to defend a particular type of society as being the necessary outcome of man's mental constitution. … The real problem is to infer the core common to the whole human race from the innumerable manifestations of human nature, the normal as well as the pathological ones, as we can observe them in different individuals and cultures. … Man as he appears in any given culture is always a manifestation of human nature, a manifestation, however, which in its specific outcome is determined by the social arrangements under which he lives.” [The Sane Society, pp. 21-22]

I don't agree with Fromm's last statement, that "[m]an ... is always a manifestation of human nature", since we don't even know if human nature exists. I don't mean that we don't have biological constraints on how we think, act, our emotions, etc., but human nature is just that: nature of humans outside of all other influences. To know what human nature is, you must remove man from all social, political, economic, and ideological influences, in order to test it. It's something that just cannot be done - it's impossible to test. It probably does exist, but we just don't know for sure, and I doubt that we will ever know.

Admittedly, I don't think this position is too difficult to come to, intellectually. It just requires that you discard the dominant, irrational, Hobbesian view of human nature as always bad, and think critically about the subject.



I have been made aware by insanityv2 that Lily turning hostile (in conversation) to us is probably due to exploiting Copper, not because of the conversation option I took.

If Lily wasn't hostile to us, we could give back her possessions and gain a little experience. Oh well. Now to talk to E, and wrap up this side quest.



You're welcome, E. Keep her safe.

We're gonna be gettin' out of LA soon. Too dangerous here. Rosa told us something big's about to happen and I don't want to be here when the Jack comes out of the box. Take that for what you will.

"Jack comes out of the box"? I don't like the sound of that. Goodbye, E.



That's it for this update.

Appendix to Update 4

Tehan posted:

Regarding Thinbloods as an ill omen, let's talk a little about that. 13th generation is the 'default' for VtM characters - to be 12th or 11th takes purchasing a merit, and 14th or 15th is a flaw that gives points. 14th generation have an 8 blood point capacity (compared to 10 for 13th) and 15th a paltry 7. They are very likely to be clanless Caitiff. Most damning of all, 15th generation cannot embrace, though rumour has it they can reproduce sexually.

However.

In Vampire: Dark Ages, there was a generation that was seen as thin-blooded, hunted as harbingers of the apocalypse, were likely to be Caitiff, and was unable to embrace. This was the 13th generation.

Let's crunch some numbers. You can't really pin a date on the Deluge that destroyed Enoch, from which only the 3rd generation survived (or so common knowledge says). Some pin it to the end of the ice age and the flooding of the Mediterranean, about 15000 BC, or more recently the Black Sea deluge hypothesis, about 5600 BC. Others conflate it with a historical city, such as Çatalhöyük (5700 BC) or Jericho (pre-6800 BC). Let's lowball it and say 5000 BC. That means there's been 7000 years in which 12 generations (4th to 15th) have emerged, or an average of one every 580ish years. Without some artificial constraint on generation, this is straight-up bullshit. Not only can you not seriously expect the average vampire to wait a dozen or more lifetimes to have a childe of their own, but someone with a single drop of curiousity and nothing to do on a rainy afternoon could get a childe to embrace, and that childe to embrace, and so on within a few days and reach the 'bottom' of the generations easily.

So there's three real possibilities. Either 13th has always been the cap until now and thinbloods really are the harbingers of the apocalypse (supported by the apocalypse actually happening), or the cap has been slowly expanding as time marches on and each 'new' generation gets to be the latest scapegoat for all of vampire society's troubles (supported by the continued existence of the franchise, thanks to CCP, and by how the 13th generation's thinbloodedness seems to have vanished).

The third is that there's always been generations up to 15th and possibly beyond, but they've had their numbers kept far down by their being hunted by polite vampire society and their comparative lack of awesome cool powerz to keep the outside forces that hunt vampires at bay.

The third is interesting, and has an interesting theory revolving around it - there is a phenomenon known as Revenants, those who have been or who's family have been ghouls so long they are born or reborn with vampiric vitae naturally (unnaturally?) produced by their bodies. They age slowly, have access to Disciplines, can reproduce, have the Beast, and can drink vampiric vitae to fuel their Disciplines, but aren't reliant on it to remain ghouls. They are said to be produced by the Tzimisce's selective breeding of ghoul families for generations, but if you look at the thinbloods progression another possibility arises - that they are the children of Thinbloods, no longer vampire or man but something between. And the Tzimisce are the perfect candidates for those that would be most curious to see what would happen if you bottomed out the generation.

OAquinas posted:

Ah, thinbloods.
First, to address the revenant point made above, they would be dhampirs, not revenants. Effectively semantics at that point in terms of their actual differences, but they aren't the same.

Now, Rolf was likely a bog-standard 13th gen vampire--the default for the modern setting. The 14th gen CAN be a "normal" vampire, albeit a very weak one, but they are highly likely to be clanless caitiff (that is, they don't get a standard clan "weakness" and discipline set, but can learn all disciplines at a rate in between in-clan and out-of-clan for regular vamps). They also have a chance to be thin-blooded. A 14th gen thinblood is very weak, and embracing will fail half the time--E was a very lucky guy to not just die. The upside to being thinblooded is that the sun doesn't hurt you as much (though it will still kill you...slower).
It IS possible that lily could be a lower-gen vampire who just happened to be thin-blooded (its a flaw that sometimes happens), but given the setting it's unlikely.

This means E is 15th gen. They are ALWAYS thin blooded, unable to sire (it always fails; 15th gen is the end of the road), and are barely vampires--they can usually pass for human with exceedingly little effort. And in the Final Nights, they also have some interesting abilities.
Rosa is an example of one who has premonitions or visions of the future. As mentioned, some can even become "alive" enough to bear children, which are born as the half-vampire dhampirs. Like Blade, they can daywalk and use basic vampire abilities. Unlike Blade, outside of that they're far weaker than real vampires and would get their ass handed to them.
In the clan novels a Tzimisce elder, who's explored all sorts of exotic body shapes and structures becomes interested in finding out if it could learn to bear offspring by dissecting pregnant thinbloods. It ends about as well as you might think.

The vampire end-game, Gehenna, is either a fairy tale or something to actively work on averting depending on your politics. But one of the harbingers of it is "The Time of Thin Blood" coming, where a lot of them would be found. So the unofficial policy of most cities is to purge them whenever they're found--plus as Rolf said, they're liabilities. Weak.


As for the relative scarcity of higher-gen vampires earlier, in the earliest years control was tightly held over one's progeny. The second generation was betrayed and destroyed by their childer. That's a lesson they took to very closely, and their childer after them. After things break down and the 3rd generation goes into Torpor/Hiding/etc, the elders still try to control siring to prevent the growth of powerbases against them. There's a reason it's one of the break-this-and-die vampiric Traditions/Rules/etc.

Still, generation creep is inevitable. In the middle ages a 12th gen was the bottom of the barrel, lowest rung. It took a few hundred years, but now 13th is...but at this point both human and vampire populations ramp up precipitously, and so the proliferation of the 14th and 15th generation happened very quickly.

Vicissitude posted:

Actually, 14th and 15th Generation vampires HAVE to take the Thin Blood Flaw. There are a heap of other penalties on top of that, like 15th Gen vampires only have 6 effective blood points to use for anything other than waking up (out of their usual pool of 10 BP). On the plus side, they can take a little sunlight here and there. It only does Lethal damage to them, rather than Aggravated.

Tehan posted:

OAquinas posted:

Ah, thinbloods.
First, to address the revenant point made above, they would be dhampirs, not revenants. Effectively semantics at that point in terms of their actual differences, but they aren't the same.

Yeah, I had forgotten the term for it. The theory was that 'revenants' were just a name given to dhampir families to prevent others from knowing they were the ultimate in thinbloodedness and thus that the Tzimisce had deliberately bred the harbingers of the apocalypse... which really discredits the omens, just like the treadmill of thinbloodedness Ephemeron just highlighted. A common undertone among all the games is that the Apocalypse has always been nigh, and it's just this time it really is by more or less pure coincidence. H-bombs? End is nigh. Destruction of Enoch? End is nigh. Destruction of Carthage? End is nigh. Diablerie of Saulot? End is nigh. Rise of the Technocracy? End is nigh. Fall of the White Howler werewolf tribe to the Wyrm? End is nigh. Death of Zapathasura? End is- holy shit that time it really happened

Vampire society is dominated by people that have been screaming for those darn kids to get off their lawn for thousands of years, their default reaction to everything is shaking their cane at it and denouncing it as the downfall of civilization. Werewolf society is largely dominated by the type that look back at the days when they kept humans as cattle and breeding stock longingly and see human advancement as to their detriment. Mages, of course, have the Technocracy, which is doing a lot better than most Traditions at adapting to the change of the modern world. It's showing the punk roots of the oWoD - the stodgy old farts are out of touch with the modern world and it's time for the new generation to seize destiny by the balls.