Part 14: Grave Mistakes, Part 3
Update 14: Grave Mistakes, Part 3
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While we're travelling, a fun fact: The Temple of Ishap in Malac's Cross is the only place you should go if you ever want to get gear blessed, it has the absolutely cheapest Tier 3 blesses in the entire game.
Oh, and, if you head off-road here you can find another moredhel chest.
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CHEST
Once again this one messes a bit with the formula, like the BLADE chest we encountered previously.
The only really worthwhile thing in this one is snagging the shovel inside if you don't already have one. Most graves are not high-value targets, but a few are, and predictably we need a shovel to finish up this chapter's highlight sidequest anyway.
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East of Malac's Cross are two locations of note, the Temple of Lims-Kragma and... something special we'll check out after we're done annoying a bunch of death cultists.
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Here, we can actually bother the high priestess for some exposition.
BaK posted:
There were no walls in the high priestess' chamber.
James struggled to imagine how any such room could fit within the confines of the Temple, seeming as vast as any river valley through which he had ever passed. Even more startling had been the winding maze-like corridors the death acolyte had led them through to reach the room.
"Few rush to speak to our lady. I am curious to know why you wish to converse with us." the high priestess said softly. A gauzy black pavilion draped her throne, obscuring from view all but her lithe form limned in witchlight and a single pale foot which she rested upon a skull carved of onyx. "Why do you call on the Drawer of Nets?"
Seeing no point in lying to her, James shrugged. "Curiosity, as much as anything High Priestess. I wished to learn a little more about what awaits me when I am no longer living and you, short of the Mother Matriarch in Rillanon, are probably the one with the best answers. I do not like surprises."
"Unless you are prepared to devote your life to her services, I cannot help you. It is not something I may merely unfold for you in an hour or an afternoon," she said. I will say this. There is no joy or love in her realm, but neither is there sorrow or pain. You have nothing to fear of her unless you swear the oaths of a Nighthawk."
"Why? What would that mean?"
"Pain everlasting," the high priestess replied. "Those who are Nighthawks have sworn a dark oath, and those of them that are known as the Black Slayers swear the darkest oaths of all, allying themselves to other gods or goddesses who would hold them free of the portal of death at the price of their souls. Once a man becomes a Black Slayer, he may only be called into her halls by an invocation of Lims-Kragma herself, the Prayer of Final Rest."
Lims-Kragma is a goddess of death in the same sense as Morr is in Warhammer Fantasy, that is to say, death as a part of the natural cycle of things. There aren't exactly a lot of undead marching around Midkemia, skeletons, vampires and zombies aren't generic enemies(at least not for a couple of books yet), which leaves the Temple a bit redundant compared to similar faiths in other settings, until the Black Slayers show up. The one thing that makes the Nighthawks in Silverthorn and Sethanon(as well as a contingent of Moredhel who have sworn the same oaths), somewhat scary, is that the Black Slayers among them refuse to die unless their hearts are cut out and burned, or magic cuts their puppet strings permanently. Until then, they literally recover in a few minutes from any sort of damage done to them, and can be remotely puppeteered(and made even more scary by), the dark masters who empower them. The Temple of Lims-Kragma helps out mostly by offering final rest to a repentant Slayer in exchange for intelligence on Murmandamus' doings.
It's a good thing we've yet to meet anything that scary.
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The party visiting this statue is entirely canon. Let's have Owyn touch it.
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Good thing Owyn doesn't get a vote in this party.
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[GORATH]
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[DELEKHAN]
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It feels like the Oracle may originally have been intended as a sort of hint station for players who got lost, and she does actually have useful hints for a couple of the less obvious sidequests(like, for instance, the goddamn one we're headed to Sethanon to get involved in shortly), but otherwise she doesn't have an awful lot to say. In the book she mostly just shares her thoughts on Gorath after Owyn asks if Gorath is about to stab them all while they sleep, and then Owyn wakes up.
She is, in fact, a hint that something very important is going on, something you'd only know about at this point if you have read Darkness At Sethanon, as the Oracle is very closely related to an Important Metaplot Thing. Since this is also one of the bigger reveals towards the end of the story, I'll be leaving this one out for now.
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The Oracle's roughly halfway between Malac's Cross and Lyton, and as we're on our way northwards I manage to bungle my way into a trap because I figure I can take a shortcut back to the main road.
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I wish they'd made more of these traps more challenging, perhaps mixing in some more enemies and such, since it's usually blatantly obvious where the various crystals have got to go to disable the lightning rods or block the fireball throwers.
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As usual, it's protecting a chest.
NOTHING
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Coming back to the road we also encounter a novelty: a chest that isn't hidden away in the ass end of a thicket of brambles and bushes.
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KNOCKER
This one actually has something interesting and gives me an excuse to talk about one of the worst mechanics of the game.
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Keys. So, every non-code lock in the game can have one of four states: Unlockable only with lockpicks, unlockable only with a special key, unlockable with lockpicks OR a generic key, not unlockable(there are a few of these, like the "fake" ways up from the Krondor sewers). Now, the problem is that being openable by a key does not immediately make a lock harder to pick, in fact, of the locks openable both with non-generic keys and lockpicks, James can open 7 of them at the start of chapter 2, 15 if we hand him the Amulet of the Upright Man(of course we did). How many are there across the entire game? 23. There's also nothing in the game that really hints, to you, the player, whether a given lock can be opened by a key or not., and all these statistics are also hidden from the average game player, so you never know if you want to grab some keys from a store or not.
On top of this, keys are also not expendable. If used right, they never break, if used wrong they sometimes randomly break(assuming they aren't special unique keys).
This is a case where less obfuscated mechanics would've worked better. If the player always knew if a non-generic key opened a given lock, and the lockpicking requirement, and keys were always expended when used, it would turn it into a tactical decision of whether to spend limited resources(keys, and thus by extension money) or bypass a chest that they were unable to pick. Oh and if keys were actually usable for more than a fraction of the game's chests. By far the majority of them are Moredhel wordlocks.
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Rant aside, as we travel the road between Malac's Cross and Lyton(devoid of combat encounters, nicely enough), we come across a lone house with a well. This house and the associated well are related to a very important bug. Let's have a talk with the owner, oh and poke at the well, of course.
BaK posted:
The well seemed normal, and yet there was something about it.
Stepping up to take a closer look Owyn suddenly felt a powerful surge of energy enter his body. He jumped back in pain.
"Obviously," Owyn said, rubbing his stinging shoulder, "somebody doesn't want us to get too close to this well. Perhaps we should go talk to whoever lives in that house over there."
---
Standing in front of the intricately carved door, Owyn stepped forward. "These are magic symbols," said the magician, "Carved, no doubt, by magic means..."
"Nope, just a regular hunting knife."
The figure of a small elderly man followed the disembodied voice around the edge of the house. "I was out back tending to some chores. You're right about the symbols being magic though. Carved 'em there myself. Name's Flarr Wygn."
Thrilled to be in the presence of another magician, Owyn smiled and said, "It would've been easier to do it magically, Flarr."
"I suspect you're right about that. But I'm not a magician. No, it was my brother who had the gift. Died a couple years back." The old man stared solemnly at the door for a moment, then suddenly cheerful said, "Left behind a magic well. His legacy. Its guarded by a pretty nasty spell -- give you a good jolt unless I turn it off. You head on over to the well and I'll give you a drink. It'll fix you right up and set you back only 25 sovereigns."
---
"The protection spell's off, boys." Though he claimed he wasn't a magician, Flarr had a knack for appearing out of nowhere. "Gotta keep it on to ward off animals and freeloaders, you know." With several sweeps of his hand he motioned them forward. "Come on. Don't be afraid. The water in this well will fix you right up...only 25 sovereigns. Want to give it a try?"
[YES]
The healing water was obviously starting to have some effect.
Flarr leaned in closer. "Feels pretty good, don't it? You'll be right as rain in no time. Thanks for your patronage, boys."
With a wave of his gnarled hand he headed back to his house.
So at first glance, this well is a ripoff unless the party is severely beat. Resting on the road will bring you up to 80% max health for a pittance in rations, and the remaining 20% can be covered by about 10 gold worth of resting at an inn. This well jumps the entire party straight to full health for 25 gold.
Or it would.
Except that someone fat-fingered the code and Flarr never takes any actual payment for it. So any time you can be bothered to trek here, the party can get a 100% heal for free. It's pretty handy and I make use of it a few times while dealing with this area since... the party takes a few nicks and scratches.
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The area south of Sethanon proper actually has a number of small farms and homes scattered around, some of which are relevant to us. Let's go see if the farmers here know about any corpse-snatching weirdos in the region.
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This first house just spawns an ambush of four quegans, which isn't really a threat to this party but could be a nasty surprise to someone who doesn't see it coming.
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They do drop a two-handed broadsword that would be a useful upgrade for someone coming here early.
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This is also one of the few fields that has a scarecrow which, if interacted with, the party will inscrutably attempt to yank out of the ground. Don't ask me why.
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The area contains a number of worthwhile little caches to either side of the road, including an untrapped chest with a 47% Ruby, which is a pretty great score in terms of money if you find the right store to sell it at(some stores have higher buying and selling prices than others, so if you really want to min/max, you're going to be doing a lot of travelling. It's not really necessary, though, without doing any exploits, simply by going north and through the Dimwood early, this party is probably set for gold for the rest of the game), but soon we arrive at the second farm of the area.
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These guys being RPG protagonists, they obviously break into the guy's barn before doing anything else. Also because I couldn't remember if there was anything useful there.
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BaK posted:
The stamp was simple - the kind generally used by nobles or priests - and it had a handle made of ivory from which depended several silk streamers. The seal itself was of three pots stacked one atop another, the symbol associated with the powerful Glazer's Guild of Romney.
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With that bit of theft done, the owner isn't in his house, but if we march into the field past the house...
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James' first instinct on interacting with people in this game often seems to be to give them a hard time for no obvious reason except that something about them basically offends him. Still, I'm sure Max here is completely unrelated to what's going on.
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And thus we reach the unnamed town south of Sethanon. New Sethanon, possibly? It's not very large, but it holds probably the most convoluted sidequest in the game except for the grain one. First, let's knock on a few doors and harass the locals, then we'll go to the tavern.
BaK posted:
James knocked on the door.
After several seconds a large man greeted them, introducing himself as "Hershel". He invited them inside and offered them some food and cold ale. They discovered, while eating that Hershel's house was an old relay station, and he regaled them with stories about it until they were finished with their meals and ready to leave.
[the second bit of dialogue is triggered if we interact with the house again afterwards]
The man at the door greeted James with a strange look.
"What were you lookin' for behind my house a week or so back?"
James looked surprised. "I have done no such thing," he said defensively. "Perhaps you have mistaken me for someone else."
"No matter, I suppose," the man grumbled, his look lacking conviction. Escorting them to the door, he shrugged his shoulder. "I got some other things to do, so if you'll excuse me. And don't be wandering around on Hershel's land again, hear..."
Now, for the inn.
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It has the usual options of barding, drinking, fooding, sleeping and listening to rumours, and I actually get a relevant one this time.
BaK posted:
He seemed glad to have the company.
Looking around nervously, the man appeared concerned his actions would be observed. After hesitating for a few minutes, he bent closer to whisper in James' ear. "What would you fellows know about the Guild of Assassins?"
Chilled as if the blood in his veins had suddenly turned to ice, James regarded the man with a stern look. "Why? Are you looking to have someone killed?"
"No, no," the man said, shaking his head emphatically. "I want to save someone, myself."
"I see. And why would the Nighthawks be after you?"
"I halted one of their assassinations not long ago," the man said. "When I saw three of them were about to pounce on a friend of mine, I called out and forced them into an straight fight. Right away we ran through one assassin while his two friends fled, but...the fellow we ran through got up again."
James' eyes widened, knowing immediately what the man had faced. "They're called Black Slayers," he explained. "They're a Nighthawk that's nearly impossible to kill. If this assassin wanted you dead, why didn't he kill you then?"
"I don't know, but he seemed to be concerned that one of us was a magician," the man replied. "I don't know what gave him that idea, but he shouted something about not going to his final rest and for us to keep the sorcerer away from him."
Like the Temple of Lims-Kragma, it's an extremely heavy-handed hint that there's a spell for making Black Slayers go to eternal naptime. Now, let's harass the tavern owner.
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The offer of a sword upgrade is nice in itself, but especially when you know what sword she's offering. It's a really good elf-specialized sword, compared to the Keshian Tapir it loses a tiny bit of strength in exchange for being much more accurate, and hard-hitting swings are worth nothing if they all miss. This is absolutely worth going for, especially as, as long as you can get here in the first place, you can actually complete this entire quest without getting into any fights. It doesn't trigger until chapter 2, though, so no speedrunning down here from LaMut to snag it.
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Most of the graves contain nothing, but one is one we need to poke at.
BaK posted:
Jared Lycrow. Owned a shop and a tavern. Never wanted for more.
Turning to Owyn, Locklear said, "Shall we dig up this grave?"
...
An hour passed...
Covered with grime and grave mold, James distastefully flung back the heavy lid of the coffin to look at its contents. Immediately he retched as a thick ammonia scent billowed up from the coffin's corrupting remains...
"Just a body," James gagged. "Let's get him covered back up."
"Wait," Owyn said, pointing down into the hole. "Look. Someone's taken his hand. Why would a grave robber steal a body part?"
James shrugged. "I wouldn't have guessed I would be digging up graves myself if Gorath hadn't said that the moredhel use them sometimes as secret caches. Either way, let's get him covered up and be on our way."
So now we suspect, confirmed by rumours from Nivek and Lysle, that this haunting is because someone defiled Jared's grave and stole his hand. However, at this point it's a bit unclear where you should go next, especially since the next triggers need to actually be done in the right order(not that you can softlock, they'll just not trigger at all until you've done the preceding ones, the only excepting is meeting Lysle). Mind, I don't even think I got the order right since at one point I had one of the triggers refuse to fire and re-talked to multiple NPC's to make it do so. And that was AFTER I pulled up a FAQ to figure out which step I screwed up. Now imagine someone trying to figure this out without a FAQ on their first playthrough.
In any case, we now need to go back to Hershel...
BaK posted:
Hershel scowled at them.
"Back again, eh?" he said, slapping James on the shoulder. "Now I know that somethin' around here has you mighty interested, cause I know what I saw with my own two eyes. You been around here before looking for something out behind the house here. What you looking for, boy?"
"I insist I have not been looking for anything around here other than an answer to who this person is that you think I look like," James said, numbed that he had actually gotten the phrase out of his mouth.
Running a hand across his bald pate, the man made an indeterminate sound. "Don't know, don't care. Now just leave me be, okay?"
Not wanting to start an argument with the stranger, James allowed for them to be escorted out of the door...
Something which really reveals nothing new, but is apparently still important! Also after leaving Hershel's house I get turned around and blunder into the trees where I find some more chests.
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WIND
Spare change and a low-quality crossbow.
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BLOOD
This one contains some more money and a new spell, "Thoughts Like Clouds." It's a spell that prevents enemy mages from casting spells(though not from moving and attacking physically), this is theoretically a very good spell except that for the same cost you can prevent them from casting by popping a Rusalki next to them, which will also shoot at enemies or simply hit them with Grief of 1000 Nights which will ALSO prevent them from moving or fighting. Still, it goes towards completionism.
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Now, while messing with those chests I REALLY got turned around and ended up heading west when I thought I was heading east, until I looked at the compass. By this point I realized I had almost reached the turn-off north towards old Sethanon at the southern edge of the Dimwood and I thought, hey, why not? I remembered the path as not being very scary...
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After all, look at this! A single shade? I will banish this effortlessly. EFFORTLESSLY.
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Of course, there are five battles on the road to Sethanon, featuring, respectively: 1, 2, 4, 5 and 5 shades. Which ones I bungle into is somewhat randomized by stealth rolls, but after banishing this one and taking another few steps...
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Alright, so, with these fights being ambush fights, the Shades always win initiative. They have ranged attacks that MAY be able to miss, but I've never seen them miss, and each shot does ~25 damage. This means that if they focus their attacks, they can huck ~125 damage at each party member per round, and our least beefy character is Owyn, who can take barely 130 damage before going down, while the most beefy, Gorath, clocks in at around 170(combined Stamina and Health, so once the first half is down, they're in trouble anyway). Secondly, the Shades seem to take halved damage from most sources, with Gorath's usually-formidable swings doing barely 20 damage to them, and each shade has between 60 and 90 total damage needed to put them back in the grave.
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The first round scraps half of Gorath's health and puts Owyn under threat so he can't summon rusalki, forcing him to resort to dogs instead. This, on the bright side, gives me two per use, but expends limited Horn uses, plus there's a hard cap of four dogs summonable per battle, not on the field at once, but summonable at all. I can ALSO summon four rusalki alongside that, but it would require a ghost to not be currently subjecting Owyn to its terrible grave breath.
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Sadly, in the grand battle of dogs vs ghosts... ghosts win. Also note that at this point I have still yet to kill a single Shade.
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By the time James and Owyn end up on the ground, Gorath has managed to flatten two Shades and is now in a three-on-one fight with enemies that can hack off half his health per round, and pausing to consume Restoratives eats up his entire turn.
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It ends predictably. So let's, uh, reload, shall we?
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After reloading things are already off to a better start as I'm now hitting the four-shade battle rather than one of the five-shade battles. That's a significant reduction in the volume of murder headed the party's way every round. Additionally, I've used an Alfathain's Icer that I picked up from a dead Nighthawk earlier on James and Gorath's swords. Normally it would be a +50% damage boost against enemies, in this case it's barely a 25% boost, but I still desperately need it since it may in edge cases cause a Shade to go down in one hit less.
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Secondly, while I have no great insight into exactly how the AI makes decisions, Shades seem to shoot from afar about 2 out of 3 times, and the remaining 1 out of 3 times they rush in for a melee attack that does basically the same thing as their ranged attack. This time, they all stood off at range, allowing Owyn to get started on pumping out rusalki. The rusalki last about two or three attacks each, and seem to be priority targets for the shades, thus providing a significant amount of ablative armor for the party.
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James still eats shit because he's a fragile little babyman, though.
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Owyn cuts it close with the rusalki and starts switching to dogs, as the shades start losing some of their number, they kill one of the dogs and something... odd happens.
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It starts flickering through multiple overworld sprites, mostly gravestones and, once, even a campfire.
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I'm not even sure where the brick/stone sprite/texture is from.
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Weirdness aside, the battle actually ends up going in our favour. Afterwards, Owyn and Gorath forcefeed James a liter or so of restoratives and they start the trip back towards Sethanon, this time thankfully uninterrupted.
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It's around this point that Gorath pops in with a somewhat belated message.
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Despite claiming that Sethanon is somehow important to Midkemian history, it's literally never mentioned in the books until A Darkness At Sethanon where it exists for roughly five minutes before getting annihilated by a magical apocalypse at the climax of the book, ending the Moredhel invasion under the False Murmandamus and giving everyone for miles extremely weird and trippy visions. The government then pays everyone to fuck off from Sethanon and its environs and never come back, which seems like a totally non-suspicious thing to do.
Predictably this also means that, despite the town screen, Sethanon has no amenities to offer. But it DOES have an old storeroom to loot...
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As expected, the rations are all spoiled, but everything else is good, including the spells, which are...
Dragon's Breath: Creates a fog bank which lessens the aggro radius of enemies both visible and ambush, potentially allowing you to simply walk past them. Useful if there's a fight in a given area that keeps kicking your ass, but otherwise not super noteworthy.
Dannon's Delusion: Creates a fake double of a party member that lasts for a given number of rounds before expiring and which should have equal targeting priority to the real party member. Slightly cheaper than a rusalki, but can't attack like a rusalki. May not have an upper limit, though.
And Grief we already have, as one of the game's MVP spells.
Now... let's get the fuck out of here and back to our other side trip. No having side trips inside side trips. We currently need to head back to harass Max Feeber again.
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This time, we're breaking into his house before talking to him(for some reason, the previous stages of the quest trigger this as being a good idea to Owyn).
BaK posted:
The door was unlocked.
Owyn entered the small house and looked around. Judging by the simplicity of the things which decorated the interior, he guessed the house belonged to Max Feeber. "This is odd" he said, noticing a few items which seemed a bit more expensive than a farmer might be expected to own. Alerted by the incongruity, something told him to investigate the farmer's belongings further...
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In true videogame fashion, anything with a skull on it is important. Let's go interrogate Max about why he's got grave goods lying around his house.
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This absolute prick dug up Nia's father's corpse to try and scare her out of her property, like a fucking Scooby Doo villain. What an absolute twat. I'm sad there's no option to stab him in the brain and be done with it.
Once we've talked to Max, we need to head further east to Lyton.
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Lyton...
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Is patrolled by tax collectors who'll hassle you unless you pay, now, we could pay them, but...
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We could also tell them to fuck off, at which point trying to continue down the road triggers a battle. Alternately we could just hug the mountains south or north of Lyton as that bypasses the tax collectors. But let's say we fight them like a bunch of savage libertarians who hear the word "taxes."
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This triggers a battle with five Quegans(or east of Lyton, four quegans), who are ostensibly tax collectors despite being dressed like pirates.
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They're of unexceptional strength, but unique in two ways: Firstly, they leave no corpses behind, and thus are only good for training. Secondly, 36 in-game hours later, their encounter respawns at full strength. You could theoretically use it to grind up combat skills, but there's no great need for it. You can also turn off the tax collectors by bringing a number of suits of high-quality kingdom armor to the local "Lord" Lyton, but that's an awful lot of effort since our inventories are full of meth, steroids, food, quarrels and looted valuables.
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Lyton is unremarkable UNLESS we've talked to Lysle, talked to Nia, inspected the grave, and then talked to Hershel to get his second dialogue, then, upon going to the inn...
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BaK posted:
Men were laughing.
"That sounds like quite a funny story," James said. "Would you care to repeat it?" The man looked about nervously, "Uh, no... I..."
"Please," said James with as warm a smile as he could muster, understanding why the man might be nervous.
"Well, okay. I was just tellin' the fellas about old Glover. Paid 300 sovereigns for a dead man's hand - thought it was a 'glory hand' or something like that... figured he could sell it for big money, I guess."
James thanked the man for his information and his time.
This allows us to actually talk to Glover, the guy who bought the hand, otherwise he just ignores us when we interact with his house. There's also another bit of Chapter 2-only dialogue from one of the random people in the inn.
BaK posted:
James asked for company.
Smiling at them, the man eagerly accepted the offer of fellowship and told a number of tales about his works for Lord Lyton. Unsure what in the man's manner inspired his trust, James responded likewise by telling him a few of the details of their trip to Romney, though omitting the specifics about Gorath's part in things.
"Ah we! I don't envy you that," the man said, waving his hands. "I'd not be heading anywhere near the river, not for no amount of silver. Not me."
"Why is that?" James asked.
"Awful troubles there. The Guild of the Romney and the Riverpullers Guild are as good as at war. If you ask me, some bloke down Silden way is trying to stir up things. I've heard he's even got a few sneaks what are posing as members of other guilds, even carrying forged guild seals. Saw a group of them with Max Feeber, that greedy bastard out west of here."
When the man excused himself to go answer nature's call, James pondered for a moment the things he had learned. While it seemed wildly improbable that the events that were going on around them were somehow connected, he had seen the plots of Murmandamus previous to the last uprising and those circumstances had left him jaded. It made him none the more comfortable that he was now escorting a former ally of that moredhel monster.
Now, we go outside and interact with Glover's house...
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BaK posted:
The man at the door flew into a rage!
"YOU!" he shouted, pointing at James. "That hand you sold me was totally WORTHLESS! It wasn't a glory hand at all!"
James took a step back. "I'm afraid you have mistaken me for someone else, I really have no idea what you are talking about. But did you say something about a hand? We'll buy it back from you."
"I tossed that worthless thing into the dried up well at Lyton. 150 sovereigns! That's how much I paid for it. You telling me you'll give me my money back if I retrieve it for you?"
[YES]
James nodded.
The man looked at them suspiciously, threatened to have them strung up if they weren't around when he returned, then left... Several hours later he returned with a small burlap bag. Placing it on the table with a thunk, he turned to James. "Here's your hand, now give me back my gold."
"I didn't take your gold, so let's call this a 'sale,' shall we?" said James.
"Call it whatever you like - where's my bloody money?" the man bellowed.
James retrieved the money from his pouch and dropped it on the table. The man scooped it up greedily and demanded they stay until he had a chance to count it all...
This might seem like an awful lot to pay for...
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This. But it leads us to a Griefmaker, which literally no shops in the game carry, and is thus quite a good purchase(if it WAS in a shop, the base price would be 350 gold anyway, so still a good price). Now to go put Jared's soul to rest.
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Now we just need to tell Nia that we saved the day and get our reward...
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As a side effect, this also opens Nia's shop(previously there'd just be a "CLOSED FOR BUSINESS" sign in the window), and while it's somewhat out of the way and doesn't really sell anything unique, another shop is always useful. Guides say it's supposed to be an extra-cheap shop that buys almost anything, but from what I can tell from the actual FAQ site and in-game experience, it's neither.